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00;00;00;00 - 00;00;23;20
Tom Godar
Welcome to Blackwell's Labor Law Insider podcast. This is your host, Tom Godar. I've been practicing in the labor law sector for gosh more than 40 years, and I can tell you that in no time of my practice has labor law had greater changes than in the last five, six years. We began the podcast in May of 2021, following the election of President Biden.
00;00;23;25 - 00;00;49;12
Tom Godar
And elections have consequences. And under the Biden administration, a new National Labor Relations Board with a new general counsel reshaped labor policies and they were very consequential. During that time, because it was so important to stay on top of labor law issues, the family of Hirsch Blackwell labor law counsel more than doubled in its coast-to-coast reach to assist our client.
00;00;49;15 - 00;01;18;11
Tom Godar
Well, we've since had another election. In January of 2025, President Trump was inaugurated to his second but non-continuous term. And once again, we're seeing significant changes in how the National Labor Relations Board and its appointed members, the GC right now an acting general counsel, and the board members are going to interpret the National Labor Relations Act and its associated laws.
00;01;18;14 - 00;01;44;17
Tom Godar
So once again, we're continuing a wild ride of labor law. It's not likely to change soon. So buckle up and enjoy the Labor Law Insider podcast. It is great to join you once again as the host of the Labor Law Insider. And I'm smiling because I'm really anticipating a wonderful half hour or so with our guests that we're going to talk really about what's going on from the insider perspective.
00;01;44;17 - 00;02;16;08
Tom Godar
And I have two insiders who happen to be also friends and partners at Husch Blackwell. And recently Jon Anderson, one of our guests today was on a panel with General Counsel Crystal Carey, confirmed in December, sworn in in January of this year. We're going to hear about that. And Terry was bemoaning the fact that many months ago, we had an election that was contested, and there's still no movement from the board on resolving those issues related to a union election.
00;02;16;10 - 00;02;37;04
Tom Godar
All of this goes into also the landscape that's changing in terms of how the NLRB is going to look at their interpretation of the National Labor Relations Act, the Labor Management Relations Act. And so we're going to talk sort of generally with insiders about what's the nitty and the gritty that's going on. So should I have Jon Anderson as one of our guests?
00;02;37;04 - 00;03;01;11
Tom Godar
Jon has been with us before. Jon's practicing out of Wisconsin and Minnesota these days. But his practice, not surprisingly, has a reach farther than that because clients appreciate the kind of thoughtful, deliberate action he brings. Also, his ability to win. Winning isn't always defined by litigation, and a decision. It's helping a client find its way to the desired outcome.
00;03;01;13 - 00;03;24;24
Tom Godar
And Terry started his career at the National Labor Relations Board following graduation from the University of Missouri. Learned a lot. Got some great chops there, but has now walked in the private sector and with Husch Blackwell for many, many years and clients from coast to coast but certainly all over the Midwest rely on him in the health care and other settings to help thread that needle, which changes.
00;03;24;24 - 00;03;44;06
Tom Godar
I mean, one of the reasons we started this podcast years ago was the changing in this threading of the needle from one administration to another. But today we're under the administration of President Trump. It's bent a bit more towards the management side. We're going to hear a little bit about what that might look like. And we've talked about that now for more than a year.
00;03;44;08 - 00;04;07;29
Tom Godar
But our labor law insiders aren't just great labor lawyers serving clients. They also have an appreciation of the world around them. Terry, you have served on many boards, but currently you're on the board that relates to fishing and Gateway Trout Unlimited. I know you happen to be an avid fly fishing. I wish I'd knew more about that, but what are some of the favorite adventures you've had?
00;04;07;29 - 00;04;13;02
Tom Godar
Where would you like to take me if I said I'd really like to learn more about trout fishing with the fly rod?
00;04;13;04 - 00;04;36;22
Terry Potter
Well, the nice thing about fly fishing is you can go fly fishing and any sort of application, any sort of water area, whether it's lake or streams. I prefer streams and I prefer to wade in a stream versus being in a canoe when I fish. And I tend to go out west to either Frying Pan River in Colorado or the Madison or Gallatin out in Montana.
00;04;36;22 - 00;04;52;24
Terry Potter
And I know Jon's also fished at least a Gallatin out in Montana. He's also an avid fly fisher. You can't beat it. I mean, being outside and being in that environment, it doesn't get any better in that time. Well, you can be out there when nobody else is around, so even better.
00;04;52;26 - 00;04;55;12
Tom Godar
A river runs through it. Yeah, a great movie.
00;04;55;15 - 00;05;15;08
Jon Anderson
And standing in the middle of a river is much like being a labor lawyer. Things are rushing past you, and you've got to make a decision as to what's the next step that you're going to make. And the field is rocky. I was in a canoe, I like Terry, I'd fall into the water.
00;05;15;11 - 00;05;32;22
Tom Godar
Well, I did see a fly fisherman go by. I happened to be adjacent to a lake, a fly fisherman go by, and a stand up paddle board. Yeah, I don't think I would make it more than six feet that way. And even if I had more traditional, gear. Hey, Jon, part of your world is serving outside of the law.
00;05;32;22 - 00;05;53;24
Tom Godar
Serving even outside of your family and friends. You've served for many years on the Wisconsin Chamber Orchestra Board, as I have, although I'm been off that board now for nearly a decade. We're talking about favorite music and the fun that participating with others in enjoying music is. Tell us a little bit about some of the fun that you have had with the chamber orchestra.
00;05;53;26 - 00;06;14;27
Jon Anderson
Well, it's interesting, I was president during Covid, so the fun was trying to keep the orchestra alive. When we weren't performing, nobody was coming out. But these types of orchestras, these community based orchestras are changing they’re changing their repertoire. They're doing things that are different. They're not just playing music written by dead white composers. They're playing a whole variety of different type of music.
00;06;14;29 - 00;06;43;07
Jon Anderson
My favorite music that the orchestra does, they do it every year. Handel's Messiah is wonderful. That's the twice a year music. Christmas and Easter when the orchestra performs it in the Christmas time. The other favorite piece that I keep coming back to again by a dead white composer is Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture, written in 1880. 15 minutes of excellence, climactic volley of cannons and chimes and brass fanfare.
00;06;43;11 - 00;07;06;25
Jon Anderson
We just did it a little over a week ago, celebrating the 4th of July here in Madison, and from the rooftop of one of the office buildings downtown, we set off live cannons and we had the bells from the Circus World Museum playing the bell part in the climactic scene from the 1812. It's just music that never gets old, and anybody who's introduced to it wants to hear it again.
00;07;06;25 - 00;07;13;27
Jon Anderson
And it's been quite a treat to be able to do something that's non-law related, but community based.
00;07;13;29 - 00;07;36;20
Tom Godar
And the confusion and chaos followed by the amazing clarity of Tchaikovsky's music is a little bit like labor law too. Jon, thanks for your service. Thanks for your service Terry, and the enjoyment that you get out of your service, I appreciate that. Hey, going back a little bit, Jon, it said that you served on a panel, with the general counsel, Carey, only in the last couple of weeks, if I recall.
00;07;36;27 - 00;07;38;18
Jon Anderson
Late June, late June.
00;07;38;21 - 00;07;53;21
Tom Godar
So why don't you tell us a little bit about what you learned from our new GC and what the steps are that the board is going to take administratively, but also in terms of the legal context, where does it say it's going?
00;07;53;24 - 00;08;04;16
Jon Anderson
Well it was interesting, it was the American Health Lawyers Association conference annual conference held in New York, and I got in and out right before the big wedding that was held there last week or a week and a half ago.
00;08;04;18 - 00;08;06;17
Tom Godar
I mean, you didn't stay with your invitation, Jon?
00;08;06;23 - 00;08;24;18
Jon Anderson
I did not get an invitation. I did not stay. I was glad not to have it. It was, interesting. I've submitted a proposal to speak with the general counsel, and at the time I submitted it, Crystal Carey had been nominated, but not approved or not confirmed. So I had Bill Cohen, who was the acting general counsel on the hook.
00;08;24;20 - 00;08;56;29
Jon Anderson
And he said, I'll do it, but I'm not going to be in the office that I don't think. But Crystal did come through, and we spoke to about 100 people about what's going on in her world mostly. It was a entertaining presentation from the standpoint of she offered some explanations for things that we have talked about. And I know you have talked about here in this podcast in the past, and that is, you know, she didn't follow the traditional approach that Peter Robb did when he became general counsel, or Jennifer Abruzzo did when she became general counsel.
00;08;56;29 - 00;09;19;09
Jon Anderson
Typically, the general counsel issues memos on like day one or day three of their tenure saying, here's my plan, here's the roadmap, this is what I'm going to do over the course of my term here, my four year term as general counsel. And Carrie explained in her memo, number one, that she issued that she wasn't going to do that because she didn't want to add to the backlog.
00;09;19;09 - 00;09;23;11
Jon Anderson
She came into office. There were 18,000 cases pending.
00;09;23;11 - 00;09;24;21
Tom Godar
Wow, wow.
00;09;24;21 - 00;10;00;01
Jon Anderson
Average complaint case was 450 days or so long, and she wanted to work with the regions to try to clear up the backlog. And she reported some pretty significant statistics that she had been successful in settling a number of cases in balancing cases by transferring cases from region to region. And she's continuing to work on that. But the interesting thing that she said was I didn't issue the roadmap, the mandatory submissions to advice requirements to the regions in my general counsel memos.
00;10;00;01 - 00;10;37;14
Jon Anderson
And I didn't do that because one, well, I want to drain the swamp, but two, I don't have to do that because I know based on the cases that are pending, that the cases that I want the board to address are there, they're out there. The cases that I want the board to address and take action on. Just a week before we had this conference, she had expressed an interest in having the NLRB address the issue of workplace rules, of dress standards, the Tesla decision about banning the pro-union buttons, the other cases that are out there, the uniform standards that are out there.
00;10;37;16 - 00;11;01;23
Jon Anderson
She indicated that the cases that she wants like Stericycle, the case Cemex, the case that requires the employer to file a petition when it gets a demand for recognition. She's got those lined up for the board to address when the board gets up and running. Now they're fully legal. Now they have a quorum, but the board's internal policy and I asked her, is this written anywhere?
00;11;01;23 - 00;11;26;11
Jon Anderson
No, the internal policy is before we reverse a precedent, we need three votes. We need three votes, which requires we need another member on this board to be able to do that, to have a vote that I would anticipate would be 3 to 1. So she made that explanation, which certainly made sense to me, and that I concluded my remarks by saying it's going to be an interesting fall.
00;11;26;14 - 00;11;49;14
Jon Anderson
And I said that in a very coy way. I said, fall because Macy is likely to be approved. And Macy's a former partner of mine, which is also interesting, that's a different story. But he's likely to be approved before the Senate adjourns in August. That's middle of August. Then it'll be probably a break. But the real question is whether these cases that are queued up for action will be decided before
00;11;49;14 - 00;11;50;21
Jon Anderson
or after
00;11;50;24 - 00;12;13;03
Jon Anderson
the November elections, like if I were a betting man, which I am, I would say after the elections. So I think it's going to be a really interesting December, late November perhaps. I don't think that the board would take action before that, but I could be wrong on that. It's just that she's taking a very businesslike approach, very practical approach to this thing that these things are going to happen.
00;12;13;03 - 00;12;28;15
Jon Anderson
So what I did was I created at this conference a Health Warriors watch list, and I said, workplace rules are one issue you should watch. And election procedures and things like that. After I said this is what I think's going to happen, I turned to her and said, do you agree with that? She goes, yep, that's one of the cases.
00;12;28;15 - 00;12;52;12
Jon Anderson
I have a whole list. So it's going to be interesting to see how this actually plays out, but we're going to have a a board that has more of a bent towards listening to the needs of business. You know, this law. And it hard to believe it was enacted before all of us were born. This law from 1935, the National Labor Relations Act has not changed much over the course of the last hundred year or 80 years.
00;12;52;19 - 00;13;13;03
Jon Anderson
We had the law and as it was initially brought forward, which said the employers can't do this, can't do this, can't do this, and then about 12 years later, we added the union stuff that the union can't do this. But other than minor tinkering in the 1990s, there haven't been a lot of changes. So the essence and substance of the law has been the same for that whole period of time.
00;13;13;06 - 00;13;32;16
Jon Anderson
And the core of the law is never going to change. You can't frustrate an employee in their efforts to engage in protected, concerted activity. That's a bedrock of this law, and it's going to continue. Where we're going to see the changes in the fringes and the interpretations, the administrative interpretations, enforcement priorities of Miss Carey and her team. And then we're going to see the board.
00;13;32;16 - 00;13;51;29
Jon Anderson
Now, when it gets back up to three Republican appointees, we'll see some changes to the precedent that changed during the course of the Biden administration's board and Jennifer Abruzzo’s tenure as the general counsel. It's going to be an interesting time. It's a wonderful time to be a labor lawyer.
00;13;52;01 - 00;14;12;24
Tom Godar
I love your insights, Jon. And I've looked at the bio of GC Carey. Frankly, she reminds me a little bit of you, Terry. Started out of the National Labor Relations Board, understood how the workings took place, and the board understand how regions relate to each other, moved into the private sector. Her practice was aligned with management interests.
00;14;12;24 - 00;14;44;06
Tom Godar
That was very clear. Obviously, during the confirmation, the pre-confirmation information that came out, much like you've chosen to do. Terry, but she sounds very practical. And one of the practical issues is moving these cases from region to region. You were talking about that before we went on air. What kind of practical impact are you seeing from the well, let's admit it, seemingly delay in getting a general counsel, delay in getting, you know, a full board still only going to be four members of five members, but not yet.
00;14;44;12 - 00;14;56;21
Tom Godar
When we have, as we expect to have your former partner Jon confirmed Jim Macy. What practical impact are you seeing on cases that are pending, as well as the advice you're giving to clients, Terry?
00;14;56;23 - 00;15;17;00
Terry Potter
Well, there's a lot of backlog and it's not just what you suggest. Remember, federal government was shut down for some time and so everything was on hold because of that. Again, you know, our beef was on hold for a long time and still is because they haven't got a full board reviewing matters. But when the whole agency shut down, you shut down.
00;15;17;02 - 00;15;44;23
Terry Potter
That takes a process. But getting back up to gear again, that's another whole process. So a lot of factors here makes the agency stumble along. I'm in region 14 St. Louis. And I know that I was talking to one of the board agents that office. And they were reallocated 300 cases from another region to take the additional burden off that region, who was so overburdened with cases.
00;15;44;26 - 00;16;07;08
Terry Potter
And that's not an exception to the rule. That's the rule these days. There's a lot of regions out there who are so overburdened that they're cases are being transferred elsewhere just to get through this time frame and get some decisions made. So it's a very, very, very slow process. So I think we're going to have to be very patient as we go forward here.
00;16;07;10 - 00;16;20;09
Terry Potter
This is not going to be an overnight change in terms of speed, in which the regions are acting. On top of that, the speed at which the board is issuing decisions. So yeah, patience is probably the byword here.
00;16;20;16 - 00;16;43;06
Tom Godar
You know, we read that indeed the board is pushing hard to move down the cases that 37% of the ULPs charged by unions against players, 35% approximately have been dismissed, that they're moving towards some of that, which we kind of expect. Not every case that’s filed demands processing. That's what we expect the board to do. They're like a prosecuting attorney's office at first.
00;16;43;08 - 00;17;11;21
Jon Anderson
And Tom, in the second GC memo that GC Carey issued, she talked about the need for the regions to make sure that the evidence that the union has in support of a unfair labor practice that they file is in the hands of the NLRB within two weeks of the filing. Otherwise, they're going to dismiss the case. They got a backlog, yes, but they're going to try to set up a new system that is a more well-oiled machine in terms of the expectations for the parties.
00;17;11;23 - 00;17;35;15
Tom Godar
And I'm seeing a more aggressive willingness to defer to arbitration. How is that going to affect to those of our listeners where we've got management lawyers and union lawyers listening. We've got general counsel. We certainly have folks who are CHROs and so forth in our audience. What's this deferral of arbitration going to mean in terms of looking at cases or disputes that are coming the way of our clients?
00;17;35;15 - 00;18;02;14
Terry Potter
Well, that's a policy that's been in place for years and years and years whereby the board has taken a position that if there is a collective bargaining agreement in place, it has an arbitration procedure, it can be utilized and the subject matter of the ULP could be reviewed under the grievance procedure. Then they're going to defer a review on the matter until after the grievance process has taken its course.
00;18;02;17 - 00;18;24;17
Terry Potter
Yeah, it makes sense. If the parties have a dispute, you know, they probably have a predetermined procedure that they've agreed to utilize. Let them utilize it, and then the board can review it later and see if if it's similar it to meets their minimum standards in terms of review. And if it does then adopt that arbitration award and keep things moving.
00;18;24;24 - 00;18;44;08
Jon Anderson
The interesting thing Tom and Terry, from my perspective, and I don't see the deferral law changing much, the maybe a greater emphasis on it. But Carey has come out and said in terms of settlement agreements, and I believe you did this in GC memo two that she issued. She said, we're not going to make the employer apologize anymore.
00;18;44;08 - 00;19;08;13
Jon Anderson
We're not going to insist on the default language anymore. If the parties reach an agreement, why should we stand in the way? The whole process is designed to get the parties to reach an agreement and get this case out of our hands, so we're not going to stand in the way insisting on silly language that former general counsels perhaps may have said must be included within the terms of a settlement.
00;19;08;16 - 00;19;23;14
Jon Anderson
And I think that that's going to be something that's pretty significant as this plays out, because I think in the past I would try to settle a case and I couldn't get the region to move on some of those issues. So we just have a no to stop for a hearing for an administrative law judge who would ask us, is there a way to settle this?
00;19;23;14 - 00;19;36;17
Jon Anderson
And I would say, yeah, get rid of this language are more subtle than the administrative law judge would say, that's easy, let's do it over. And now we're not going to spend the time or the money having to go through that delay to get things done.
00;19;36;19 - 00;19;37;20
Terry Potter
Yeah, absolutely.
00;19;37;24 - 00;19;50;24
Tom Godar
Yeah. Terry, that was your advice early two years, three years, four years ago. And as this was moving, you said, just go get the judge. You're not going to make much headway with the way the the regions are being told to work these cases.
00;19;50;26 - 00;19;56;00
Terry Potter
Yeah. The judges were much more accepting of bypassing some of the I would call insane.
00;19;56;03 - 00;19;58;12
Jon Anderson
Tell us what you really think burdensome.
00;19;58;12 - 00;20;00;19
Tom Godar
How about burdensome? Okay.
00;20;00;21 - 00;20;24;04
Terry Potter
Well, I mean, come on, if you put all these roadblocks in the way of settlement, you're not going to get any settlements. You know, it doesn't make any sense. I mean, there's the whole purpose of these administrative proceedings is to expedite all these matters. That's why these agencies were set up versus going through the court system. They have the expertise and they can handle these cases, and bam, you get done with them quickly.
00;20;24;04 - 00;20;38;26
Terry Potter
And the economy is positively affected by the speed. Here just the opposite is occurring. That's what the former GC was causing was all this massive slowdown. You know it was just a total stand on your head policy that doesn't make any sense.
00;20;38;28 - 00;21;06;21
Tom Godar
So we're going to see changes weaved in McLaren severance agreements and that sort of thing and Stericycle neutral rules and whether the burdens on the employer to defend a rule right from the start, or whether the union actually has to suggest that it's impeding the ability to engage in protected activity, is there going to be any surprises on what the management side has sort of anticipated for the last year and a half, in terms of where the cases are likely to go?
00;21;06;24 - 00;21;30;10
Jon Anderson
I don't think so. I don't think so. I think we're going to be going back to the longstanding precedent that has existed. We'll have the three-part test for looking at rules, things that are always going to be illegal, things that may be illegal and things that aren't illegal. You're never going to get the NLRB to say that it's legal for the employers to restrict employees from talking to each other about how much they're paid.
00;21;30;12 - 00;22;01;22
Jon Anderson
That's basic casebook law, but I think it's going to be a return to a more stable, predictable environment using case decisions that have been longstanding. Some of the cases that were addressed in November of 2024 by the board, as it was at the end of the Biden era, were reversing 50, 60 year precedents. And that just upsets the apple cart and leaves everybody in a world of hurt because nobody knows how to go from there.
00;22;01;25 - 00;22;12;22
Tom Godar
Yeah, it wasn't enough just to go back to the, the Biden year board. I mean, took steps that quite honestly, I was pretty shocked by. I just didn't anticipate that they were going to tell us what a non-compete should be.
00;22;12;25 - 00;22;38;07
Terry Potter
Well, yeah, that's a good point. But more importantly, the analysis which is so fundamentally wrong. Context matters in this area as much as any area. The law and the board was just taking a position. Now, we don't care about the context, we don't care about the underlying factors were when the rule was put in place while the motivation behind it, and that is so important in these situations.
00;22;38;13 - 00;23;05;01
Terry Potter
Again, we're trying to avoid a situation where employees’ rights are being trampled upon. And that means you've got to focus on things like, okay, what was the purpose of the rule? When was it implemented? Important factors to look at. But those factors were told to be ignored by the board. I mean, it was for just terrible, terrible analysis and had terrible policies
00;23;05;01 - 00;23;05;10
Terry Potter
stakes
00;23;05;16 - 00;23;26;06
Tom Godar
Well, as we sort of wind out, Jon, you mentioned earlier and we're not going to spend a lot of time here, but you were a colleague with and practice law with Jim Macy, who's more likely than not, I'm gonna put it up to about 98% more likely than not going to be confirmed as our fourth member of the National Labor Relations Board.
00;23;26;09 - 00;23;38;21
Tom Godar
Any secrets you can share about him? What his favorite cake is? No. But is there anything that's going to be interesting to expect from him? The type of analysis and thinking, the experience that he brings to the board Jon?
00;23;38;24 - 00;24;06;11
Jon Anderson
I think he will bring a practitioners practical approach to the law. I think that, Jim is conservative as you should, that shouldn't shock anybody. I've always found him to be a straight shooter, that what you see is what you get. That he is very interested in enforcing the law, but making sure that there's a balance there, that there's a sense of of reasonability and purpose.
00;24;06;14 - 00;24;36;13
Jon Anderson
And I think, as Terry pointed out in response to your last question, I think that Macy will recognize the value of considering context. We talk about this whole analysis of these types of issues as we gotta look at the totality of the circumstances. And I think that Macy will be open to that. My guess is that he will be very interested in the cases that that Carey prioritizes for bringing to the board for action.
00;24;36;15 - 00;24;51;08
Jon Anderson
I feel very comfortable with his selection that he will not only be informed, but active in addressing the issues that employers have complained about over the last four years, six years, eight years.
00;24;51;11 - 00;25;22;08
Tom Godar
I appreciate that. You know, I have probably all of us have clients who have either tapped our shoulder and said, you want to do a handbook review or we need a handbook review, and we're going to have a little bit more clarity on how to do that soon. I understand that we're going to see the GC step into that area of what handbooks may or may not include anything that either of you want to share on that and how that affects our clients who frankly, have said, I don't think I should ever do another handbook review every time I turn around and change it again.
00;25;22;08 - 00;25;25;17
Tom Godar
So I don't have the money, the time, the energy or the care to do that.
00;25;25;19 - 00;25;51;10
Jon Anderson
One of the people that ask questions at the panel I was on the end of June was, we’re thinking seriously about just simply eliminating our handbook and not having one at all because of this constant flip flop. Again, flip flop plays into the fishing that we started off with here. I think that's a mistake. I think handbooks are important to set expectations for employees, but they need to be drafted in a way that's enforceable.
00;25;51;13 - 00;26;25;02
Jon Anderson
I think eliminating that is probably not a good idea for employers, but making sure that their handbooks are up to date and they shouldn't have to be wholesale changed every four years based on who's sitting at a desk in Washington, DC. It seems to me that we ought to be looking for avenues for standardization and predictability and moderation and balance as we create these, because businesses need to have certain rules that are ready to move forward productively, and the employees need to know what those are and shouldn't be surprised.
00;26;25;02 - 00;26;29;03
Jon Anderson
Either side shouldn't be surprised as to what the expectation is.
00;26;29;06 - 00;26;54;20
Terry Potter
Yeah. Totally agree. And the problem is with the prior administration is that they believed in a gotcha rule. We're going to develop a rule that's so ambiguous that you won't know it until we tell you that you violated the law versus giving you true guidance. So but you can prepare in advance and know that if you do A, B, and C, then the path will be clear for you.
00;26;54;23 - 00;27;12;12
Terry Potter
And that way the employer can communicate that path to its employees, because that's what the employees, what the employees simply want to know what the path is in terms of workplace behavior. That's all it gets down to. But we have this gotcha mentality. It doesn't work. You know.
00;27;12;12 - 00;27;41;27
Tom Godar
One of my favorite pieces of music and composers for a chamber orchestra is Vivaldi in the Four Seasons. And that expression of change through the seasons that he paints so beautifully with music. So seeing that we're going to be in a situation of change but sort of an expected change, the breeze will blow and we'll have GC Carey and new member Macy in a couple of months, but it's not going to be a storm that's blowing through us sometimes is portrayed and part of the four seasons.
00;27;42;00 - 00;27;59;25
Tom Godar
So I'm looking forward to being able to have at least a period of time for our clients to say, now I understand the rules the unions are going to say, I sure do understand the rules. We can do this. We can't do that. I think that'll be a welcome place. As Jon said, certain ability to predict what's coming next.
00;27;59;27 - 00;28;19;16
Tom Godar
But who knows, they will go out there because nothing will change in labor law? I don't think so. But I really appreciate the practical, thoughtful and inside stuff that Jon, you and Terry bring, there's no reason to doubt for a second that you're both super lawyers, as you've been declared and best lawyers and all that sort of stuff.
00;28;19;18 - 00;28;36;24
Tom Godar
But what I know from your practice is that you always care for your clients and want to use this sort of insider stuff to help them through the thicket. So thank you for that, too. Thank you very much to our listeners on the Labor Law Insider. I hope that you enjoyed this podcast. I hope that you share it with others.
00;28;36;26 - 00;28;52;00
Tom Godar
I'm told that you could put a like on this and all that sort of stuff, but mostly I hope that you find some inspiration from these words to say, yep, here's where I should push the throttle, steer the ship a little bit. And thanks again, Terry and Jon, for joining us on the Labor Law Insider.
00;28;52;02 - 00;28;53;09
Jon Anderson
And thanks for having us.
00;28;53;12 - 00;28;57;20
Terry Potter
No problem. Go out and enjoy the outside.
00;28;57;22 - 00;29;04;22
Tom Godar
If I could just get a fishing rod in my hand. All right, gentlemen, thank you very much.